The Chainsmokers: Stories Behind the Songs, AI’s Impact on Music, and Venture Investing | Ep. 30

[00:00] Let me start with like a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask like an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in like the business side of his empire, which was like Margaritaville. And at the time, you know, he was towards the end of his life. And he was like, I'm building retirement communities that are like for my fans. So if you're like 80 years old, but you don't want to you want to you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home, you want to go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home. Like I'm always [00:30] like businesses that are like extensions of who I am. And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about like a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces were things that were inherently things that made us successful in music. Alex, I am incredibly excited to be here with you today. I've been looking forward to this. And I know you're really busy and you're juggling two whole businesses, which I'm excited to talk to you about. So thank you for making time for this. [01:00] I was saying earlier, I've listened to literally every episode except for the last one yet. It means a lot. I want to start with music. And I love music. I'm obviously like mega amateur about it. But I've been a huge fan of your music for a long time. And I always think it's really interesting to learn about the creation of songs. I like love watching some of my favorite artists talk on YouTube about like how songs came together. Yeah. And so I want to just like go through a couple of like my favorite songs of yours. Yeah, let's do it. And just like hear about like. By the way, we just did like a photo shoot yesterday.

[01:30] And he's shot like so many of like the creative campaigns around like all of these artists that, you know, I'm a huge fan of and, you know, fashion stuff. And it's so funny talking to him because he gives you this like they give you like this unfiltered perspective where you're like, wow, that photo turned out really good. And you're like. [01:45] There was a zebra on set, you know, and the zebra almost killed Travis Scott. And then you're like, whoa, like you should start a show that just talks about this. Well, it's so foreign to people. I mean, like, because, you know, you hear a song that's like just like a premium song. And you're just like, how the hell does this happen? Like totally goes into it. And for most people, you just don't even understand what the process is. And I don't think there's like a single song in existence that doesn't have like an insane... [02:09] story even if it starts out in one day and it's done one day there's like eight months that proceed you know preceded that are like which actually makes you wonder like on that point before we go into songs like can you create a great song formulaically or does it like does it need a story i don't know if it needs like a story all the time sometimes like like lately ju and i've just making been making songs we're just like i love this this just feels good i don't like i'm not thinking about you know the narrative of the song so much or the context it's just like i love [02:39] but it's not like rooted in some like personal story necessarily but i do think like the creative process is not ever formulaic you know like the songs never start in the same place or the same way i think there's like creative things you can keep in mind like how you go into a session and the best ways that you feel like you can get to some level creativity but like i know we talked about this before uh at some some point but like you know doing the chris martin song like i remember

[03:09] something just like this yeah somebody's like this and he's telling us about you know his creative process and he was literally just kind of like they're just sent down yeah like from above and we're like i remember standing there being like what is this dude talking about like we're like we just no it doesn't we like we spend time in the studio and we like get the songs done and and then now like you know whatever five years later yeah we're like he was totally right i love chris martin i mean i think i think i think chris martin i think he's like a real artist yeah [03:39] level it's like this mass produced like for everybody thing but he's a real artist no i think they're one of the greatest you know bands ever um yeah you know obviously getting to know him and the band and understanding like how they operate and work i mean it's like nothing short of you know like pure you know magic and the respect they have and you know it the music obviously kind of speaks for itself but like [04:01] There's so many things that go into consideration when Chris and the band like move forward with the song. I went to a Coldplay concert recently, like a couple months ago. And I hadn't been to one since I was like 17, like in high school in St. Louis. And I like it was awesome then. And it was like freaking awesome now. Yeah. And I was just like, you know, the whole place is vibing. Dude, it's insane. Your song comes on, you know, something just like this gets played there. Steen's going nuts. I don't know if you've been to a Coldplay concert where you've seen this happen. Yeah. You're just like, this is cool. It's so cool. [04:31] Why can't we go on stage with you? Yeah, we'd love to be up there. Why can't you go up there? But I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's always, I think he's offered in the past and it's like we had our own show somewhere else and stuff. And I think now he's just like, we're just going to do it without you guys. Yeah, he's like, we're good at it. Yeah, we're good, which is totally fine. And like, I love when, you know, they're on tour. I get videos like every day from somebody, you know, being like, here's your song we can play. And it's just like,

[04:52] that's the coolest you know thing it's like hey i'm sleeping and someone else is doing the work it's a great that's why collaborations are awesome so how did that song happen um okay so there's like a few things parts to it so you know we've been fans of coldplay forever i think most electron artists would say that like a coldplay collaboration is like top three are you know artists they would want to work with for so many reasons because their music kind of lends itself to this like [05:22] So, you know, they were always on our like, you know, they want to get in the studio. We're so down. And they were like not down, you know, down, I think, for most of the time. And then our manager had reached out and I think they were like, yeah, we'll float it to Chris or something. But then I think before a show one day, they were like listening to Closer backstage. And Chris, I don't know, or the band was like, this is good. You know, this is interesting. Like, I would get I'm down to get in the studio. I don't think they realized we had already asked. And so like last, you know, literally get a call from their manager, Dave. I'm not sure if he still works with them. [05:52] in LA next Tuesday or something. Once again, the studio, the guy's down. And we were like, I will drop [05:59] just you will find it in Antarctica. That's what it takes to do this. Went to the studio. I think it's called the Woodshed in Malibu, which is a beautiful studio, way nicer than any studio we've ever worked in. You know, got there at like 3 p.m. or something like that. And I think we sat there for like two hours alone with his like audio engineer. But we were just kind of like waiting. We're like, I don't even want to touch anything. What do we do? Should we start working our own stuff? Should we like get ahead of this song? And then he just walks in and it's like, you know, there's only a few people on the planet that I feel like would like have that gravity when they

[06:29] in like a tornado of energy and and just was like hey guys you know what are you working on never break up this is how you know and you're just like hold mike wow yeah this is insane and funny enough like we sat there probably for like four hours you know trying different things out kind of like false starts i think that's like a big part of the career three of you basically yeah three of us and they're in his sound engineer who's like i think being with him bill he's been in forever shout out to bill probably amazing yeah he's a great guy and he's just like i think again [06:59] Thank you. [07:00] interrupting anything and Bill is great at that and and you know we're just like throwing chords out and lyrics out and different little ideas and nothing's really sticking you know it's like we kind of like get started on a melody and it's like you know like let's move on and then eventually he's like I gotta go put my kids to sleep pick them you know and we're like that's it you know what I mean you're like we're done here like he's not gonna come back and that sucks you know that was our shot at a Coldplay song [07:27] And so he leaves. Leaves for like three hours. But he's told us he would come back. And we're just kind of like, is he going to come back? Is he not out there? And we were going through like stuff. We're like, we've got to find something or do something that like when he comes back. And we found these like cords that became something just like this. And we were like, this feels... [07:43] interesting in the context of like what a coldplay chain smoker song might sound like and he finally comes back hopefully in this segment right now we'll play that just like it's just the piano like the and it's so good it's it i mean it's it was like not complex by any stretch and chris comes back and he's like you kind of feel like he's also like we got to get something you know what i mean and we play on these chords and he's like

[08:05] That's good. I like that. He just was like, give me a mic. Literally like grabs a mic and dances around what like would be the size of this backyard. And you guys are just together. He's dancing. We're sitting there like. [08:17] almost like the energy is like don't move you know what i mean like like it's like we move we're gonna disturb what's happening right now and he literally like lays down like what is probably like 80 of the core of the song and the lyrics come in just naturally literally he's just like you know stumbling like you know over each lyric and then just like progressively it's just pouring out of him and probably in like an hour and he and and we're just like holy shit wow we have a [08:47] have given him that beat before you had met him or did you need that session with him to get that sort of like you know that progression i think we needed that session i know there's plenty of collaborations that happen you know over email and digitally and i don't think that's like you can't not have success that way but i think like you know he wanted to get to know who we were we wanted to get to know who he was i mean for us just getting in the studio with him and being a [09:17] it was important to like [09:19] understand what he wanted to like sing about like what thematically like stuff was speaking to him you know like and so you know we could have sent him 40 beats but like would he actually listen to them would he like have the had the intention and focused as he went through them and i think like the energy in the room had like built up over the course of this day where there was like pressure but like also this like expectation where we were just like we're gonna get you know it's

[09:49] of people. But like you also can get in the rooms of people and recognize quickly that it's like this is not meant to be. So it's scary in that way. Yeah. You mentioned Closer during that, which is another really great collaboration. How'd that one happen? That one's a really crazy one. So we were [10:04] in tour in Illinois is on our friend zone tour, which was like one of our first bus tours ever. Yeah. This is when like 20. This is probably like 20. [10:13] 15 or something like that. And on this tour, there's this great artist who's still around, Louis the Child. And after every show, we had set up like a really shitty show. [10:22] production room in the back of our tour bus. So we'd be like kind of drunk and tipsy or whatever and we'd like go you know what? [10:29] After the show, everyone would like pile into the bus and kind of like blast music and dance. And in the back, people were always like, we'd be like writing songs, producing things. And we hadn't really like. [10:37] Lusa Chow was on like three or four shows with us and we were big fans of theirs and we were like let's you know let's get in the back and like work on something and Drew had a you know like essentially like this song had been like floating around in his head for like two or three years he had these chords that his hands you know as he would say like always just landed on the piano and I think any piano player says that like you kind of like there's just like certain chords your hands is like gravitate to or when you sit down and they were the closer chords and he kind

[11:07] but like didn't [11:09] really have functioning that have like [11:11] Any idea of how to like build it out into like the full track that you know it is today. And so, you know, in this back of this bus, I'm like, you know, like 2 a.m. Lewis, a child and all of us are just kind of like jamming. And they came up with like a lot of like some of the electronic line because it was much more like. [11:26] I don't want to say acoustic, but ballady at this point in time. And they were really good at this bouncy electro style. [11:34] And and and like a bunch of the song, like I would say like half the song kind of came out in the back of that bus. And we were all like, this is cool. Like, I really like this. But like tipsy, it's late. You're just kind of like, cool. I don't know. And then the next day, I think we were in Utah or something. We're like, let's play that thing from last night. And there's like a bunch of random friends from the area on the bus. And they're just like, what the fuck is that song? You know, and we're like, oh, you like to like play it again. Yeah. And we like played it like 25 times. In the same format. You didn't change it at all from the tipsy night. [12:04] change it from the from the night before and we were just like oh it's actually good huh yeah like that like we like this but i didn't like it didn't scream things to me and the other thing that it's worth mentioning and shout out to sean frank he's another great dg producer that has helped us some countless songs we didn't drew wasn't had never sung [12:21] anything up to that point in time. Yeah. And we didn't have any singers on tour with us. So he was just like, I'll just sing it as like a scratch demo. And hopefully, you know, we'll find someone else to replace me. And so when we were playing it for people, it was like Drew singing. And they were like, damn, you know, like, [12:35] sound pretty good, you know, like in the, at least in the tonally in the world of the song. And it was just wild because Sean, like to Drew and I, you know, shout out to Sean, he was just like, I can make you sound good. Like, I know you're not a singer, but like, I have like enough

[12:49] experience in like Pro Tools and Auto-Tune and all these things where I can make you sound amazing. And he did. And like they remember sitting there like for like a few shows in the back bus where Drew just cut every line over and over and over and over and over again. And it like till it started to really like glow. And it was just a wild experience. I remember we sent it to our manager and a few people and they were like, [13:09] it was weird because you send stuff to people and you don't know what their reaction is going to be. And our manager was like, cool. You know what I mean? Like, and we were like, what? Like, this song is amazing. The song, like, the story just goes on forever because like then it was about there's so many feature issues and things like that. I'm curious what the, and this is kind of a funny question, but like what the impact of like drinking or drugs can have on creativity. I feel like in like tech [13:36] circles a lot of the world though there's lately been this real push towards no drinking no drugs like a very sanitized physiology totally which i'm all for yeah i love going to bed early yeah i love feeling good i just also of course know that a lot of creative people i think both actually in tech in music in other fields like i do think that like [13:57] alcohol and drugs play some role for a lot of people. 100%. I mean, I think it's like, you know, can obviously loosen your inhibitions and kind of like lead you on a path of coming up with ideas or doing things that you like him singing. Yeah. Might have like been a result of like having a few beers that night where he was like, I'll do it. You know what I mean? I don't care if anyone's around me thinking that like my voice sucks. I'm just going to do it. I think it was like a double edged sword. I mean, I totally agree with you. I think like I mean, you know, Drew's like the epitome of health now. I think like we've both been very conscious over a career of like,

[14:27] We need to tone this down a little bit. We never I've like I've actually never. My fun fact is I've never done coke ever in my life. It surprises a lot of people. We're in Vegas a lot. We played, you know, sometimes like. [14:37] you know, four or five weeks of shows in a row. Drugs and alcohol are a big part of like [14:42] music culture historically. Yeah. And I think that, you know, there's an obvious reason why, you know, you're dancing, you're having fun, you're partying, those, you know, the associations of that. I'm not part of art, even like I think a lot of like writers. Totally. I mean, it's kind of this like tortured self thing that like, you know, it's like cool to smoke a cigarette. Look cool. You know, like people smoke a cigarette look cooler for some reason. I don't know why, but it's like definitely going to give you cancer. And there's something dangerous and badass about that, like self reverence. But, you know, I mean, we notice that. [15:12] with ourselves is that like in the studio, the same way that it can like enable you to have a little bit, take a little bit. [15:18] more risk or step outside your comfort zone. It also becomes like a dependency where you think like, [15:24] "Oh shit, I can't write unless I'm, anything great, unless I'm tipsy or drunk or having a drink or something like that." And that's like definitely a slippery slope. And I think that goes for like anyone across anything. You could make that case for like, you know, marathon runners, you know, it's like, unless I run 20 miles today, I'm going to be in a terrible mood, you know, and I think, you know, finding that balance is really, really important. And it's something that we've definitely thought about. I mean, you know, the idea of writing music during the day used to be like, hell no, you know what I mean? And like, we write at night, that's when it's a vibe and it's cool. [15:54] and you can kind of like cut loose and now we're just like no i like the focus of the daytime and and coming here and and having like the intention of just being like we're making music no matter what it's like writing music like caffeinated like i always think that like you know like after my second cup of coffee yeah i have like a few hours where i'm just like my brain is at its

[16:12] absolute peak totally it's productive peak it's not creative peak but it's productive peak but i do wonder if you get to a place even in creative endeavors where you probably could translate that caffeinated morning buzz into yeah into music no totally i mean i think you know you have to come in with energy and inspire but i think like anything it's like uh so much of the importance is how you start like i can tell like almost right away when we're gonna have like a productive day versus a day where you're just like we're just like hitting walls and just nothing feels inspiring [16:42] it's really tough as you get older like when we started making music like really no one like cared about us like no one bothered us checked in no one was like hey I need your eyes on this for 15 minutes or you know this thing's happening over here that needs your attention and so like it was very much just like we were in the zone and no one really could take us out of it and no one wanted to take us out of it and and now [17:02] you know, be so much more protective about that stuff. I don't know if you saw like our photo on our studio door, but it's like a literally a set of rules that are like before you come in here. Like, no, you know, think about this. Like, is what you're about to say really important? Like, are they in the middle of something? And and, you know, because we found that, like, it's so easy for someone to come in and just be like, hey, by the way, that, you know, [17:24] deal or that show something happened and you're just like oh [17:28] God dang it. And then you're like, now I'm not. It's Paul Graham's like great essay that, you know, talks about the maker schedule and the manager schedule. Yeah. Like when someone's making things, you need to not distract them. Totally. Too expensive. The flow state is very real. I mean, like roses happened in one session. Like most a lot of closer happened, even though it's like an idea that had been floating around happened in one session. Don't let me down similarly. So like there is.

[17:51] something consistent about that and you really like want to stay in that that place most songs still you'll come back and spend seven months [17:57] refining and tinkering. But generally speaking, it's not like, hey, I got 10% of this song out today and then 20% tomorrow. And then, you know, there's just something, you know, Drew has this great expression where it's like there's something changes when a song becomes a promiscuous. [18:12] you know, and it's like, listen to too many people before it's done, or too many opinions have weighed in on [18:19] what people think the song should smooth out the good edge yeah exactly and it's just like something the magic just kind of like eroded away and uh and i think he's totally true and i think like i'm always like let's not show anybody this thing or like outside of really like especially when you know it's good you know i think about this a lot this happens in [18:38] This actually happens for me in investing. It happens in other areas of life, too, where you're uncertain, you're uncertain, you know, and you're asking for a lot of opinions. And then every once in a while, there's a thing that you're positive is good. Yeah. And you don't need to ask anybody's opinion. And you just do that thing. I totally agree. Like, I know this is right. You have to, like, trust your gut. Like, I'm a huge intuition guy. And that's why I'm happy to have Drew as a partner because we kind of like, yeah, iron sharpens iron is kind of like how we think about it.

[19:08] awesome you know what I mean and and like you know people don't always have the same context everyone's coming with their own uh you know uh [19:17] like experiences that are shaping the way they're thinking about something so you might be like hey i love this you know idea nuclear it's great and they'll be like this guy's like never gonna work and it's like well is that because you lost 20 million dollars and like the last era of nuclear or are you actually looking at this with like a fresh eye that's not like tainted by any past experience and i don't think anyone could say that or not in some way shape or form uh you know the uh you know [19:42] outcome of all their experiences some of all their experiences just because i love these songs stories if we could do one more don't let me down is another one of my favorites can you tell me how that came together yeah and it's funny because i like wasn't in the room when this song was written it was a heartbreaking thing i think i had like a doctor's appointment or something stupid uh that day and so drew and our we were in new york we lived next door to each other on 23rd street and we did this session with uh [20:06] Scott Harris and Emily Warren, both amazing writers. Emily is one of our closest friends now. I remember they came in and wrote... [20:13] you know they were inspired by uh kind of like the xx the bands their head i think their headlining coachella are close to it this year incredible band yes and they just have these incredible guitar riffs and they wanted and at the same time drew had just been challenged by his girlfriend to make a trap song uh his girlfriend at the time now uh she was just like really into like yellow claw and trap artists and he was like i can i can make this you know and like and so he was like but

[20:43] I just haven't made any of it. And, you know, I remember like getting there after everyone left. And he was like, so we wrote this today. And I was like. [20:51] good god you know and i was like what the hell [20:54] Like it wasn't fully flushed out, but it was like pretty. It was good. Pretty damn good. I don't think he had the drop yet, but it was like coming together. And and I was like, what's it about? And he was like, well, it's Emily wrote it about being lost at Coachella on drugs. And so and like you're supposed to meet up with friends. Yeah. But like that you can't find them. And you're like, don't let me down. And I was like, this is, you know, really, this is a really good song. And then we like had a flight later that night. And when we landed, Drew was like, I think I got the drop. [21:24] weird song for me because i was like i really didn't have much of a hand in it at all we're gonna stitch that drop in here because i just played it in my head yeah yeah and and then like you know and then i'm like but i get to you know reap all these amazing rewards for it and obviously we didn't have day on the song at the time we didn't have the finale so a bunch of things like i you know did get the participant but like truly i mean that was a drew emily scott special yeah you know the last thing i'll say that was really funny about this song is that i remember we were like this is the song it's gonna be the next single 100 everyone that heard it was like this [21:54] insane. And then Drew's computer completely crashed. And I wouldn't say Drew's the epitome of organization. And so we were like, what do you mean? Like, you've got a backup or like something. And he's like, I don't have anything. It's gone. And so we had to rebuild the entire song from memory from scratch, which is kind of,

[22:10] truly insane but he'll tell you that it was actually a really important exercise and i think this kind of leans into a lot of things that rick rubin does really well which is like he didn't include anything that wasn't completely necessary the time next time around like he was like i remember the guitar i remember the bass i remember the piano i remember the drop synth i used and and the horn is in the end and it was like instead of having like in the first version kind of had all these different layers trying to compensate for things and create more depth and texture and [22:40] done. These are the main parts that I remember. And the recreation came out better. Better, I'd say, because it was just like all the bullshit that was was like kind of removed from it. But I was also like, we have to now we have a very thorough backup. Yeah. But but it was, you know, that was a scary one because it was like, what if we lost that song forever? Actually, this is making me wonder if you had to go back and recreate [23:01] like, you know, similar versions of your existing songs right now. Yeah. And be like, make it sound mostly the same, but like, you know, see if you can improve it. Yeah. Do you think you could? Like, could you go make Paris a little better if you just like spent a week on it? I think like, we've said in the past that like, Don't Let Me Down and maybe Sick Boy are like the only two songs we've ever like finished that we were like, those are done. You know what I mean? I don't know how to make this better. Like that is it. Every other song, there's like something. Closer you're listening to it and you're like, I could change that to make it better. Turning something down, [23:31] like just little you know like tonally things you might sing a little differently nothing significant you know what I mean but like just like do you do that so when you play songs like live do you improve them years after you've released them and then the live version that you play is like you stick with an improvement I think like for us like yes I think part of it is like DJ culture of just like we want to surprise people we want people to

[23:55] hear the song that they love and know but like surprise them with a bigger drop or something that you know just leans into like the experience we're trying to create with the show a little more without like ruining the actual you know nothing's worse than being like oh it's my favorite song what the hell is this for you know like years ago i went to a show of yours in las vegas daytime yeah and i was just like this is like the most unbelievable energy ever yeah it's fun there it's a crazy energy it's fun there it's got to be so i can't even imagine what it feels [24:25] get used to anything yeah I'm sure after you've done it enough every experience is you and everyone in Vegas is like trying to have the best time of their life which makes that experience really fun for us but like because you're just like I'm trying to help this huge group of people just have like the best day of all that's what you got to remember I mean like it's been of like I've been playing there for like seven years now and you'd go in and you kind of be like uh I mean now we've played like four or five hundred shows there yeah and you're like yeah this is like routine on some level like they like yeah and you're like block that's our job you know like I'm not gonna sure [24:55] people on or think are cool that maybe aren't popular yet but like a lot of the experience is just like hey like we know what you're here for i i've been in your shoes i just want to like party with my best friends and have a great day singing and dancing the songs that i love maybe and our job is to like present them in clever fun unique ways that make it interesting because it's like you know vegas i don't say like the people there are the lowest common denominator because that's not true but like the the habits of what as a sum of their parts like they all like mr

[25:25] really like that song and so you know you're like but then you'll play like you know a song that's number one on billboard right now and people are like i don't know this song yeah yeah and it's like damn this song does not trickle down and so it's amazing to watch how long it takes for a song to like permeate through culture to like reach that broad consumer base and it's our job to kind of test those waters and challenge people but like feed them things they know like we have this [25:55] into closer and like people will love it you know yeah because it's like country fans now they love fast car people that love closer and it's like and like just when you think you know the song you're like oh it's closer and then you have wait fast car and then it goes back in the closer and it's like those are the fun things that you can do yeah like make you know a pretty straightforward experience more interesting you have this really rare trait which is that you are both an artist and a real business person even listening to the way you've [26:25] part of it is like you gotta go internal make your own thing, not listen to anybody screw what other people think which is to me the epitome of an artist and then you're also like [26:36] give people what they want. And we're here to like deliver like an experience for people and, you know, listen to them and get their feedback, which is like the epitome of like a business person. And you're both. Yeah, we're it's a we're tormented inside. Even the fact you spend half your time and, you know, as an investor, half your time as an artist, you know, that mix up, I think, is uncommon. It's awesome. I mean, I think like for us, you know, when Drew and I met, I guess it's like almost 14 years ago now, like from the very first hang, you know, it was pretty

[27:06] we wanted to achieve them. Like it wasn't like there was going to be some shortcut to success. We were like, we're both willing to put in the work and the hours, whatever it takes to kind of get where we want to go. But I think like the unique part, I mean, this was a crazy first meeting. I mean, first we were like, do you like Calvin Harris? You know, and it was like, yeah, Calvin Harris was like, cool. What else? What else do we have in common? But then quickly, it was like our love for dance music, our background tastes amusing and things we listen to, you know, entrepreneurial endeavors that we had throughout our youth that we didn't know each other. And then like we kind of like, [27:36] this but also like when we are successful in building the chain smokers like let's only use that as like the stepping stone to like building a bigger platform of opportunity and entrepreneurial efforts we had no idea what those things were but we were like from the get-go we were both like it's not just gonna stop here yeah and i think for us you know you know drew used to sell timberlands that he bought locally in china you guys are always entrepreneurs always doing stuff and trying to you know find ways to be creative and clever in business and i think you know music is such a like [28:05] certain part of your brain and personality. That like, I do think part of us was like yearning also for something that was like a little bit more tangible and analytical. And I don't want to say music's not competitive, but business is definitely a different type of competition or way of thinking about it. You know, for us, we had started tequila company, we had a TV and production company, and venture was kind of the last most recent thing, bastion for us. And honestly, I didn't know what it was. You know, like, I really did not know anything about venture. Like, [28:35] some company that wants you to potentially invest and take some equity. And I was like, what does that mean? I mean, I understand what equity means, but what is venture capital, like passive income? And he was just like, listen, you guys have been intelligent about how you've diversified your portfolio over the last few years. This is certainly not something you have to explore, but if you are interested in, you know, you're not going

[28:59] investing in products or platforms or things that you know you think are cool let's try it you know and like most of the time you're gonna fail but like maybe you get lucky and and work out and you know we began that journey and very quickly it was like a part of our brain lighting up that like i felt like had been not dormant but like underserved and it was just so fascinating to be passively along on the ride with these founders that had these like super ambitious goals and and plans [29:29] Thank you. [29:29] things came from that. Yeah, and then I'm sure it all plays together. And, you know, I'm sure there's a bunch of ways where, you know, business makes your music better or music can make your business better. Definitely. I'm sure there are also ways where you probably feel like tensions on certain days just because there's only so many hours in the day. Yeah. An example I've thought about. Um, [29:47] I'm actually really curious to hear how you think about. Last year, I got into hi-fi audio. I've always loved music. I played music a lot as a kid growing up. And I love listening to music. And I started listening to albums. I find the experience of listening to a whole album super different than just listening to a song. And I feel like the difference is I'm listening to an artist rather than a song. And so it's just like, who's this person? And then I get into their albums over

[30:17] about this a bit before but like one of my favorites is boni vera yeah and like you know he's just had like [30:24] there's i can't say enough good things i'm gonna mess it up but like there was like the early days with like for emma forever ago where it's just like it's all so raw and young and he's talking about a breakup and he's you know i think his band fell apart he's like in the woods with like a sad sounding guitar but it's amazing and then he gets into like his core stuff a few years later like with his like self-named album yeah and it's totally different and there's band around him now then it got really experimental like he had like um [30:51] I Am I, before that there was 22 A Million, and those songs, I'm just like, what fucking instrument is that? I don't recognize that sound. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. I mean, Judge Vernon's like the [31:00] Goat of Goat. Yeah, I think we talk about this with, you know, like any artist out there, like if Bon Iver is not in their like top five, I would be like thoroughly surprised by that. He's just so real. You know, he's like, I don't know cars, but it's like people that are like. [31:14] you know, there's cars and there's car lovers, favorite cars that are universally like that's the car, you know, he's like that for musicians. And I think, you know, to your point about albums, which is something, you know, we talk a lot about today because there's just so many. It's changed so dramatically the format by which we listen to music. Yeah. Fighting for people's attention. But I do think that like you would be hard pressed to find an artist in the history of music that like would stand the test of time that hasn't delivered like an incredible album. I think [31:44] if you will ever be mentioned among the greats and those albums they're just like um so much has to go into an album totally and i think like i know uh billy eilish talks about it a lot she's just like i try not to

[31:56] pick singles on my albums like the context is so important like she's like i generally like [32:01] I'm kind of put off by when an artist is like this song is my single. And, you know, like and I think like Jack Enfalf kind of said it best, actually, where he's like singles are like without an album or like hallways that lead to nowhere, you know. And singles can be a path to a story, which is fine. But you need their story. You need the story. You need the album. And I know that's like harder than ever in today's culture of social media and fighting for attention. [32:31] a week or no you have to like it's so tortured for a year i bet literally i mean i think we've you know made some great albums in the past and every album was like dramatically different in terms of our approach probably the thing that like felt closest to what like [32:43] The artist that I really admire and respected it was because you kind of do have to like unplug from the world. You're like, I'm going off into this mental space and physically and I'll be back. [32:54] when I have something that I'm excited about, you know, and I don't even know what that is yet. I need to figure out what that story is, what that visual line is, what, you know, what I care about right now. What does it feel and sound like? You know, I'm a huge Tame Impala fan. He does a really great job of this. But, you know, for us, like during COVID, we rented a house. I was actually right before COVID in Hawaii. Shout out to Brian Chesky. We were friends of his. We had like met him through some events and stuff.

[33:24] know. And we were like, we'll take one in Hawaii. And we went there for like four weeks and just did mushrooms and surfed and wrote music literally every minute of the day. And it was like, this is what, you know, we weren't taking meetings. We weren't getting interrupted by people. Yeah, we were like locked in on this sound. Granted, it still took like two years to really finish that album. But when we came back, we were like, this is the, you know what I mean? Like we had, we were, you know, like the road had been paved and we just needed to continue down. Did the mushrooms help? Yes and no. [33:54] talking about alcohol. It's like there's like the perfect balance. Like it got out of our own way. It's like this ego killer thing. It like I want to say it flattened. [34:02] Like, but, you know, when we were all like, it's weird if you do mushrooms with a group of people for some reason, like you all hit at the same time. And it's I don't know if anyone's listening can agree with that. But like you could sit around friends, you all take mushrooms, you're all different sizes, you're all different, you know, biologies. But like category, like I guarantee you, you will all be like at the same time, you're like, whoa, you know. [34:32] everything but at the same time you can like over index and then you can get we you know start writing about really weird stuff and i think again it's everything in moderation is important but at that time it was like that was the feeling we want [34:44] We didn't want to come in there with angst and aggression from previous experiences. Our Sick Boy album was filled with resentment towards...

[34:56] like the press and media and and how people perceived us it was like this weird disassociate associating feeling but it was weird because over that was like [35:04] an album that came together song by song in a different way and like literally like eight songs in the album we were like happy again you know and so like this album takes like this dramatically different tone yeah and you're just like but i think that's what makes it authentic when it's like that 100 but we're just like what a weird yeah you know like it is weird when you're listening and you're like oh something happened yeah yeah yeah i was like well you know and so i mean it's definitely like a reflection of us and the timeline of our lives and the things we were experiencing but you know [35:32] It wasn't like a moment like. How do you balance like wanting to give people what they love? And obviously, like, I'm sure a huge part of what drives you is like getting to make millions of people happy. Totally. Music. Yeah. How do you balance that? And you know the type of music they love. Yeah. With I'm sure you also have your own interests in music and your own desires to grow as an artist in different ways and to try new things. Yeah. And like, I'm sure there's some tension there. It's such an important question to ask because I think that there's somebody who starts this.

[36:02] around it and are excited about it you know you make this song and it becomes you know not what you're synonymous for but like you know tame paula has a sound you know drake has a sound everyone has something that is identifiable where you're like that's like you know the vibe and then you start people being like oh it's it's just that again or like let's see you make something else and try something else naturally like the bad that stuff comments like that for some reason cut through and we can make anything like we generally are like good producers and writers make all kinds [36:32] I can show you. And in some cases it works like Drew's ex-girlfriend that was like, you can't make trap songs. You know what I mean? But he found a way to fit in the context of our world, which I think makes sense. And so I think it's so important to like stay true to who you are. It doesn't mean don't experiment, doesn't mean broaden your horizons and seek, you know, and explore different opportunities. But I think it's really important to like stay. It has to be authentic, I think. Exactly. And like if you've changed as a person, I feel like the music should change almost. Absolutely. [37:02] every song it's just like hey like what's wrong with like like you know people coming to us for this thing like kygo this is why he does so goddamn well it's because people come to him for this sound and experience and it's fucking awesome and i think he you know he really delivers that experience i think the other you know side of the equation is kind of just this idea of like i'm a big oasis fan and i love like the liam and no caliger clips that you're getting from like the past and he has this like epic clip that everyone should go see where he's just like he's like

[37:29] your fans are idiots he's like they don't know what they want he's like that's what i'm supposed to deliver to them like i tell my fans what they want they don't tell me you know what they want you know obviously he does it in his oasis way which is like awesome and funny and reverent but like i also totally agree with him and i think you know you have to balance that you know we had a song we just put out called smooth that i love and all of our fans like while we were promoting other songs were like smooth release smooth we want smooth and like we made smooth we're very excited about smooth it is very authentically us i don't think it's like a departure but like [37:59] we were also like [38:01] thinking like, oh, this is going to be our biggest song because our fans are all asking for it. But like, I don't, it's not working out that way. Yeah. And so whereas like we released a song last summer called Addicted that none of our fans were stoked about, but ended up being, you know, one of our biggest songs in the last few years and like appeal to a much broader audience. Can you, so you're saying it's not that predictable what's going to hit? I think it's just like, you just got to do what you trust your gut, kind of what we were saying earlier. Like, you know, I don't think releasing Smooth was a mistake. I love that song, you know, but, and I don't think

[38:31] It's harder to play addicted in our shows because it doesn't. [38:34] fit in naturally with like the energy we've created, whereas smooth is just 100% chain smokers. So I think you kind of have to like think about those things long term. And I think like selfie is a great example of this. We made that song as a joke, put it on the internet just for fun, took us like 30 minutes to do it. And then we have to live with the song for the rest of our lives. You know, now people expect us to perform it, talk about it. You know, it's part of our history. You know, we didn't think about that so much when we just put it online and the internet, which is forever. And so it's, you know, those things [39:04] But I think as the artist, it's your job to like absorb these things, understand why people are feeling a certain way. Like, I think like what we should have taken away from the smooth thing is that people like love when you're singing. They love the, you know, intimate storytelling of our music and they like, you know, the hands up progressive house production. And it's but it doesn't mean necessarily mean that like we should be like smooth is the next song because they want it. You know, does good art require. [39:30] external inspiration like can you make great stuff without some catalyst that's inspiring you whether it's something good or bad that happened in your life somebody that you saw and learned from and you know were you know really moved by what they did yeah can a great thing really just bubble up out of you or is it always being translated from some inspiration outside i'm gonna go with inspiration like and i'm not saying that like going back to what we were saying about chris martin and like music being sent down and you kind of have to but i think it's when it's sent

[40:00] and creatively to like receive that, you know, message and inspiration. And usually those feelings are coming from all these experiences that you've had around your life. Could be a new love, could be a breakup, could be a movie you've seen, could be a conversation you just had. You know, a lot of the ways we start songs are like therapy sessions. It's literally like forget music. What's going on? You know, like what is how is your home right now? Are you having your relationship? Are there anything that surprised you? Like some of your family? What's it like being 35 or 40 in my case [40:30] about things that impacted you. And I think acting is a great example of this. You're literally being hired to play the role of someone [40:38] not you, you know? And so like you are channeling [40:41] all of these things you've seen and experienced to like try to kind of capture the essence of this character in this film and i can remember i think it was like a pbs episode where someone was like great acting like to be a great actor like go do everything else except act like go to as many art shows as possible see as many as much theater as possible listen to as much music as possible read as many books as possible and like then you will have this like incredible library of context where you can pull from and hopefully create you know your own thing and i think you [41:11] the conversation about like large language models being like copyrightable outputs or not, you know, I don't think they really should be, to be honest with you. Have you played around with AI music at all yet? Yeah, absolutely. What do you think? It's incredible and scary. You think it'll matter? Like it will matter. Do you think it will like, do you think we'll be listening to a lot of AI generated music? I think we already are. You don't even know it. I think like in the middle of your song, there will be clips that AI help or there'll be parts that AI help. Maybe eventually. I mean,

[41:41] you know kind of again like what i like about ai tools right now for us is just like keeps us in the zone which is all we want to do it's like instead of getting caught up being like fuck we need to make drums now which is the next part of this creative process for us and it's going to take me like an hour and a half it's like [41:57] Never mind. I can prompt this thing to pump out. This might not be the final drums we're going to use, but it keeps us moving in the process of creativity. Yeah, I think, you know, we've gotten demos sent to us where it's like 15 songs that Drew's singing on. And you're like, no, no, no. Actually, Drew sounds pretty good on that. And I think that's a really cool application of it. You know, I think that. [42:17] if you were in a nightclub and I was playing an AI generated song, but it was good. Let's just say it was like a good song. [42:24] I don't know. You know, and like genuinely, like I think like if you can kind of do the like control placebo effect of like AI music versus. It's pretty good. Yeah. Like would people really be able to like determine which was which one isn't. Do I think it's important, like kind of like the similar conversation about albums? Like I do think context matters. Like I think like, you know, albums provide context the same way that like a personality provides context.

[42:54] is knowing something about the artist and why the song or the album happened. I don't think that's the only way to enjoy it. Like, I also love just listening to something on the radio. Yeah. Or like, you know, you're out doing stuff like that's awesome, too. Yeah. But like the best version of enjoyment of music, I do think the context helps. Absolutely. And I think like it's interesting because we're kind of like fighting against that with TikTok in many ways. Like, I think the way people are discovering music, which, you know, TikTok is a great tool for and platform for is [43:24] of this only recently did like spotify created integration where you can like click on the song that takes you to spotify so you can even see what this person looks like you know i mean or anything and i think like that step is definitely missing the mark in a lot of cases for like younger listeners now where they're not taking that a show they're just like oh this is a cool song i'm you know not even everything that goes viral on tiktok translates to streaming on the platform either but i think you know those were some of my you know that's why like music videos were so cool [43:54] available, everything's out there. You know, we're all like, do you even care? I just like the song, whatever. You know what I mean? But like, I think like the artists that have longevity force people to like ask those questions and kind of like seek them out a little further because like, you know, seeing what Justin Vernon's like as a human being, it like adds so much depth to his music. Bruno Mars, same thing. You're like, this guy's great, good dancer. You know, you wouldn't know that if you didn't see him out. He also has more, he has more number one songs, like his average of number

[44:24] one songs is like 700% or something like like 70% of the time he has a number one song which is like he's only released like 75 songs or something 80 songs which is like unbelievable statistics one of the things that's so cool and you know I don't you know I'm in San Francisco in tech and so I don't get to think about this as much but like outlier talent is it's really a cool thing yeah that there are some people that are just that good at singing that good at music that good at you know entertainment like it's it's cool yeah it's really cool and also it's like really weird [44:54] having that talent working on the wrong thing or like it's like so talented that they can't even like channel it correctly like i had terrible adhd growing up and i was like a super average student until like 10th grade and then i figured out like making lists organized my brain and like it was just a function of like i can do everything i just like [45:13] wouldn't spend enough time you know like and i love the experience of crossing things off more than i like like hated having to focus and it just made me like a war machine of like getting shit done and i think like that's when you find someone that's like doing the thing they're supposed to do yeah at the right time it's like one of the greatest i think 30 years ago 30 years ago we like misunderstood ddhd as this like ailment and it like turned out it's this superpower that just like needs like cyclops 100 i read a really interesting article the other day about like [45:43] and how a lot of our favorite apps today, used by most of society, were created by people that have some level of autism or app triggers or something. And that there are by function tools that kind of like...

[45:57] like aid someone that's like natural experience in public is like uncomfortable. So like Facebook or Instagram or all these things like are ways to kind of like [46:06] like create community but in like settings that are like [46:09] more [46:10] consumable and comfortable. And I was like, that's really interesting thought that like, we've like, you know, all the most powerful platforms were created by people that like wanted to create a platform that was like lean more. People think of ADHD as like inability to focus. And that's not what it is. It's disordered focus. Totally. So it's just also it comes with mega focus. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, like, again, it's just like figuring out how to use those superpowers. That's like one of the biggest struggles that anyone has in life. Everyone has [46:40] you know, overcome some experience. I know, like, I think it was like Mike Moritz is like famous for asking for like, like, what kind of trauma did you go through that's going to give you some sort of edge or chip on your shoulder, you know, drive that like will just help you succeed against everyone else. I think everyone has those things. It's just like, it's really hard to. [46:57] It is hard to uncover what those things are and even harder to figure out like where to direct that energy, even if you do. I think like every day it's what motivates me because I'm like, I never thought I'd be doing any of this stuff. So it's kind of like, let's keep going. You know, I think it's where like self-awareness matters so much. And it's what lets you take advantage of your special attributes. Yeah. And I think a lot of people want to be something that they're not or they want to do something that's not natural for them.

[47:27] to venture firm and you're working really hard, very successfully at that. Yeah. And it's a really different job than your than your music. And you and I were chatting before about like playing to your strengths and figuring out where you've got, you know, an unfair advantage and focusing your time there. So maybe just to like start on the investing side, like how do you think about where you want to be playing and where you should like focus Mantis? It's kind of an interesting [47:51] approach in terms of that like we are not consumer investors like i fact leaned into like spaces that like we probably like have the least amount of business being invested in and i've listened to like that every a lot of your episodes and like every time i've finished listening to one i'm like what am i even doing you know what i mean like if this this guy isn't my competitor by virtue of the [48:09] way we've set up our firm, but like, wow, you know, like, you've set up in order to like be able to participate with everybody. Yeah, like we we want to be collaborative. Like I want to learn from everyone around me. I want people to think of us as an ally versus I also think that's like was a big part of our success in music was collaboration. So I think it's like a natural extension into venture and like, over time, [48:29] will absorb these best practices and hopefully become the great investors that, you know, I listen to on the show every week. But I think for us, you know, we wanted to lean into spaces, like, out of curiosity, like, I was much more interested in investing in cybersecurity than I was in more consumer stuff. Similar with AI, similar with health tech and deep and frontier technologies. I just thought, like, you know, if you're going to, [48:51] If it's already such a gamble, at least some gamble things that you care about, I think are really interesting. I also thought that I was like, hey, this is like.

[48:58] like there's tons of celebrities investing in soda companies like very few investing in software software. Yeah, that is an advantage and disadvantage in itself. It's probably a reason why they're not doing that because it's really technical, really challenging. And also like what business do you have? Like a lot of success that we hopefully will have is just, you know, an outcome of the value we're able to add. So like the second that we invest in a company and a founder is like they just [49:21] didn't know shit, they didn't do shit. That was just a real waste of cap space for me. We're dead in the water. So we definitely took a risk doing this. But I think Drew and I are hustlers and we're just like, we're going to figure it out. We know, I have to believe that there's more things these companies need than what is currently available to them. And also, modern day times are changing so fast. The things like, when the B2B creators now, or B2B enterprise software [49:51] like they're making videos like Logan Paul does. And that's awesome. And so I knew that there was gonna be things that we could offer that would be helpful. And we wanted to make sure that it was like commiserate with like what we were asking for. You know, it's like don't ask for 15% if you don't feel like you're gonna add 15% values to the company. And then, you know, the last piece was also just like the formation of it. And I say this a lot, but like, you know, [50:14] I wanna, you know, we've made so many great relationships over the course of our career, with all sorts of incredible people that are all like leaders of these different areas. And to us, it was like, why not go raise capital from them, you know, turn them into allies of the fund where we're using them for advice, we're like potentially leveraging the success of their platforms to drive value back in the end into the companies we're investing in. And they're like, we'll use them as our initial wedge so that when someone's like, why are you investing? Why should I let you invest in this company? It's like, because I know you want to talk to this guy. And this guy is one of our

[50:44] and make that, you know, happen for you. But once we're in the door, we'll like provide, you know, all sorts of value. And I always say, and I think it really summed up by this kind of analogy, it's just like, we're trying to be the sixth man of the year on every championship team. You know, like I'm not trying to be a starter right now. Like I'm much, I think it's much cooler to come off the bench for a team that wins a ring than it is to be a starter on a team that's not even in the playoffs. And, you know, I think we stand to learn more by being a part of that process. What you mean by that is you just want to be in great companies, even if it's not like you led the round or something? Yes, that. [51:14] of like being [51:15] alongside a founder that is building a great company. You get to see what greatness looks like. You get to understand what are they doing that's [51:22] like I can take and hopefully [51:24] replicate across other investments. And it's like, you know, you kind of are what you eat. Like if you hang out with shitty people, you're going to be a shitty person, probably. You know what I mean? You know, like if you got to play on the, you know, [51:34] what was it, like 2002 Lakers, 2001 Lakers, like with Kobe Bryant, like you got to see this man, the way he practiced, the way he approached the sport, like the intensity. You also got to see how Phil Jackson coached the team. And so for me, as like a new investor, it's like that's a huge benefit too. Like obviously the goal is to be a part of great companies. So we generate big returns. But I think for us, it's also just an opportunity about learning from the best and seeing what that profile looks like so that we can improve. Do the two worlds trade with each other in any way,

[52:04] them in the background. In other words, like, are you in any ways directly using, you know, one sort of network or one sort of special access point in the other? Or are you like, actually, that's like polluting the sanctity of each? And I'm going to learn from both. But there are two different businesses. Yeah. Let me start with like a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask like an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in like the business side of his empire, which was like Margaritaville. And at the [52:34] time, you know, he was towards the end of his life and he was like, I'm building retirement communities. [52:38] that are like for my fans. So if you're like 80 years old, but you don't want to, you want to, you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home. You want to go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home. Like I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about like businesses that are like extensions of who I am. And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about like a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces were things that were inherently things that made us successful in music. But I think in music, [53:08] similar to venture, like, music is a losing game. Like, most of the songs we put out do not go, unless you're Bruno Mars, do not go on to be successful, you know, or at least, like, the success that, you know, you would talk about in Rolling Stones or Billboard or something like that. But you do learn. [53:21] something very important from every song you are building you know character and history and and and you know reps in the gym and pattern recognition and i think investing is a lot like that like everyone i spoke to which was like hundreds of people was like most of your investments are gonna go to zero and i was like one comfortable with that you know name but like you have to like learn from that you can't let it be uh you know uh like it can't set you back in terms of like your next deal you have to like immediately

[53:47] get back to, you know, out there and, you know, stop looking at the scoreboard. Just keep your eyes on the field. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, something that's really important. And I [53:58] every time we put out a song, we have to like provide context to it. We have to create a story around it. We have to like reinvent ourselves and tell people like why we should pay attention to us right now. And it's noisier than ever. And I think every company, whether you're in the enterprise B2B space or consumer side or [54:13] have that same opportunity and and hill to climb and i think you know [54:18] we can provide like a vantage point that is like very useful and helpful i think to founders um that's not like contrarian to what like the tier one sequoia or you know whoever is offering we just think that like we're the you want the avengers on your cap table you want someone that has like a unique perspective point of view that's looking at things differently but wants the same outcome and i think like music and our experiences in that and building our business there and our brand are like super relevant to like how we think about company building [54:48] on like how you experience like sort of you know elite circles in music and entertainment and in tech and investing you have real time with both yeah i'd just be curious like how similar is it are there like some like fundamental differences i feel more like i don't know why like i mean we have like plenty of awesome friends in the entertainment space that are you know successful but like it does feel like like either there's like secret groups that i don't know about where everyone's hanging out like sometimes you see a wedding and you're like damn like so they all hang

[55:18] - Yeah, you're like, what a cool, I wish I was part of that group. I mean, Drew and I are just like, we've always just kind of, like, we love being social, but we're also just like so locked in on like. - You've got a lot to do. - Yeah, well, we're just like, like, we're, you know, we've never counted, no one lifted us up, you know what I mean? And we kind of have always felt like it's like it's on our shoulders to like, [55:35] figure this out and make the music. And like if we're out gallivanting around and we're working with celebrities. Yeah, like it's just like, I don't know, it doesn't feel natural. Doesn't make music. Yeah, it doesn't make music. You know, and I think there's like value in it. Like when a fashion week is cool, like you love fashion, you love fashion. Like it's, you know, an amazing experience. Like I don't care about it that much, you know. So I think we all seek out like things and interests [55:57] that align with who our personalities are. But like, I honestly, like, [56:01] I feel like we align with like the founder tech Pete world a lot more. [56:06] more acutely because we're just like, you know, let's, you know, like put hours in the gym and like the harder we throw like work through like our, you know, selves of these problems, the more we're resolved, we're going to get out what we put in. [56:17] And, you know, I feel like we have kind of an imposter syndrome with like the Hollywood side of things. Like I don't feel uniquely special. I feel great about myself, but I don't think like anyone should treat me. [56:29] you know, differently for the things we've done in the past. And it's like I'm more just like, what have I done? You know, today? Yeah. Then I am like what I've done in the past. Yeah. I mean, I always think celebrity is a very funny thing because it's like no matter how famous somebody is, like they're still a regular person. They wake up, they like wash their face in the mirror. Yeah. Like and then they look at me like, oh, yeah, I'm George Clooney. I forgot. You know, there must be some experience like that for everybody. Absolutely. I mean, I think like, you know, I'm like the most average. I mean, it's kind of a joke about us. We're like any two white guys can kind of be the chain smokers.

[56:59] people like oh kind of who you are and totally and i'm so like grateful for that like i don't think i'm like an ordinary you know person but i i think like to that end like you can't [57:08] I don't know. I just don't think that's like how you get like I don't think like elitism and things like that are like how you if we think we're like the greatest humans in the world. Like, is our music going to begin to feel like that? You know what I mean? And reflect that and like the relationships we have with people. And I think for us, it's our brand has always been built on like acknowledging everyone in the room. Like some of our superpowers are like if you walk into a crowded space, we're going to make you feel like you're the. [57:31] biggest VIP here, even if I've never met you before. And I think like that's how I wanted to be treated. I don't maybe it's like high school drama or something, you know, things. But like that to me is is [57:42] more important than anything and like you know when we were coming up our music [57:47] Like we didn't want to be like wearing big diamond chain. I could afford diamond chains and super fancy cars, but it was like, I don't. That's not what we're about. Like I wanted to like buy drinks for everyone at the bar. And I think it can take you away from. [57:59] the art i think in business it can take you away from the good stuff there too like yeah i do just feel like when people get lost in like materiality and ego and status it is one of the ways people can like lose themselves well you see it on the founder side too like you know especially nowadays with like some of the rounds these kids are raising and secondaries they're allowing to take out and the press surrounding them and i've certainly been involved in some of those companies and they're not bad people it's like insecurities or things catching up to you yeah it like

[58:25] inopportune times where you're like driving cars you probably shouldn't be driving yeah like renting apartments or houses or going out too often because now like finally people are inviting you places and want to talk about you and it's like don't lose sight of things you see it happen in la with young artists all the time it's like they write a big song they move to la yeah they're like girls that want to take you out you're going to clubs playing your music and then suddenly you've been in the studio for one or two days and now there's a huge pressure on you yeah and you're [58:55] like we're still living the dream even though you know we're not going out every night and but we're like this is what we wanted to do the whole time why are we not doing this you know right now and i think you know balance is really important i think like you know that doesn't mean to say that you should like this 996 shit is the path to success but like i don't blame anyone for having those things like we're all kind of the circumstances of like products of our environment but [59:20] it is a shame when you see it and but i also always understand when people are going through that yeah it's like um somebody recently said to me that i think stopping me that just like money and power fame like that whole sort of sphere of things it doesn't necessarily corrupt but it will definitely make more potent whatever natural inclinations you have and obviously everybody has like light and dark inclinations someone was like saying like i always ask someone like what

[59:50] and there's like a right, you know what I mean? Like the right answer is just like, [59:53] money because like fame is like you're chasing something like egotistical or is like i don't know and i don't know if that's like a fair question no i think i i think understanding what drives people and you know there's probably some other things in there some people just are like out of that whole game entirely but i do think you know of those three different people are very driven by different ones totally i mean you see it like i mean there's no you know more relevant place to seeing this than going somewhere like central in the summer where it's like you [1:00:23] billionaire doesn't mean they're like, but then Elton John pulls up, who's also probably a billionaire. Yeah. You know, but it's Elton fucking John. You know, he's getting that table. And so like we're all chasing access and relevancy. And I think, you know, in getting to know some of the artists we've worked with and just people that we've met over the course of our time, like everyone is struggling with something. Everyone doesn't feel relevant enough. Everyone is like, you know, even Coldplay, I remember I was like, dude, they sell out 10 Wembleys instantly. Yeah. You know, that's like 600,000, 700,000 tickets. And he's just like, but he wants... [1:00:53] kids, you know, the next generation is uncorrupted, though, to me. I think everyone's corrupted on some level. I think he's definitely probably on the lower end spectrum of that. Like he is really principled person. And and, you know, it's just an amazing guy. But I think we're all still no matter what you tell yourself, there's like, I don't care. We tell the world one thing, but inside there's something else really driving you or keeping you up at night. And I know I feel it myself.

[1:01:23] have like a busy decade ahead where it's like you could you could go a lot of ways do you take it as it comes are you like you've got a particular mission in a place you want to get everything it's important like drew and i probably don't do this enough where it's like you have a conversation about like what do we want to do this year you know what i mean like what do we hope to gain like what is the next like do we are we both on the same page that we want to make and play music for the next five years and you're like and it's not like surprising the answers we have but it's like surprising that we haven't had [1:01:48] the conversations, you know, you also have to balance your like [1:01:51] objectives with the reality of everything like music is not a young man's game like we both want to have families like we definitely can't be well you could tour as much as we want right now with kids but like what kind of impact does that have on the kids on your relationships with your wife like these are all things you have to consider that you maybe don't [1:02:07] necessarily have all the answers for right now. I was listening to the David Sandler podcast and he was like, I only think 24 hours at a time. You know what I mean? And I was like, I don't know if that's a bad or good thing. Yeah, like I think that's an important way to stay locked in and continue to prioritize the things that are important for you in the short term. But like, you know, you have to like build like I don't didn't expect Mantis to be a tier one fund off the bat. You know, I knew it would take 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there. So you have to [1:02:37] lines a little bit to get there and understand that like you know we were taking 50k allocations and fund one into great companies because like we understood that's where we sat yeah and it was more important to be in that logo yeah than it was to like be outside and i think in music you know

[1:02:52] where are we investing our time in singles and albums you know is it on the the show that's the most important thing is it you know actually pulling out of the market i mean we're so available like if you want to see us you can come see vegas pretty much every weekend is that a bad thing it's not a bad thing but there's a trade-off it's a thing you know it's a trade-off and so you know i think it's just being aware of those things having those conversations yeah um are so critical i'm lucky to have a partner where you can have like [1:03:15] even though we're not the same person, we're more aligned than most people are. - It's incredibly lucky. - Yeah, and you get to like, you know, he'll say things that I'm like, "Oh, that's..." I wasn't really thinking about it in that context, so that is super relevant. But it scares the shit out of me. I mean, like, you know, my dad died, I think he was like 54, you know, so I'm like only... [1:03:32] Yeah. And he felt so old, like mature to me. Mine was 67. Yeah. And it's just a weird context when you like put in that perspective of like, oh, my God, I'm already not far off in this guy. Am I like better shape? Am I better looking more successful? Am I a bigger asshole? Like, well, I have left, you know, an impact on the world on some some level. But but I think, you know, you can't lose your mind not being able to control the things you obviously can't control. Yeah. And and just like have fun.

[1:04:02] which is like, to me, like momentum is just the most important thing with anything. And it doesn't necessarily mean like momentum and like our songs are streaming more or making more money this year. Or like momentum comes in all different shapes and sizes. And it's like, I want to have fun when we make music in the studio and we talk about planning a tour or what our show looks like. You know, I want to when we're discussing deals, it's like a lot of it's not fun in the traditional sense, but it's like, damn, we're like in here for this great deal. Like I can't believe [1:04:32] and and I think that to me is like what drives me you know it's just like every day you're kind of like you know [1:04:39] a couple steps forward is like very meaningful when you zoom out in the long run and try not to get wrapped up in the like hysteria of like damn this song failed you know keeping it something where you're happy to win not just like sad to lose i feel like it's so important 100 i mean i told you about a deal i'm like freaking stressing out about right now and i'm like already in my head i'm like [1:04:57] He's probably going to say no, you know, like or zero. And I'm like, and what is that? What would that make me feel like? And what does that mean? And for the future? And like, do I want to help this person anymore after this? Like, you know, what kind of and I'm just like, no, of course, I'm going to fucking help this person. And of course, I'm going to be bummed out. And of course, I'm going to try again the next time. And, you know, but like, also, you know, this guy's answering my text every time I answer. He's not, you know, there's he could just be like, no, you know, like, and so, you know, you kind of I'm an optimist in that sense, where it's like, [1:05:27] you know it could be a lot a lot worse it's an awesome mindset yeah Alex this is great I'm gonna let you get back to your day thanks a ton for doing this with me let's go all right hell yeah they're watching us yeah this guy's just fucking zipping around he's just trying to watch yeah yeah we'll post in a couple yeah yeah

[1:05:47] Dude, I had no idea you had fans like this. Yeah, it's crazy. Sorry.